Scala was the second programming language I learned (the first was Java). I think I'm quite lucky to have picked up a language like Scala so early in my programming journey. It made it very easy for me to learn new programming languages, since it made it easy to support wildly different paradigms (which is also what makes it hard to use in an enterprise environment).
yeah, you get everything and the kitchen sink with Scala. Which is actually IMO its biggest weakness. It wants to be everything, and it isn't amazing at anything as a result.
That is why I actually like Scala. I want every tool to be available at my disposal, and I can choose what to use or not use. I want it to be reasonably succinct and type safe.
I don't want the language to dictate how I use it. I'd prefer the language not to look out for me. There might be some, but a lot of languages look out way too much. Golang for example doesn't allow you to compile if there is an unused var. Java with private as the default.
It is great that there is a production-ready language that differs from other languages.
Python is multi paradigm, but does several things really well that other ecosystems do not. Javascript as well. Java as well. What claim to fame does Scala have in this regard, aside from being the best supported language for Spark for several years before PySpark overtook it? Perhaps Akka before the boneheaded decision to paywall that ecosystem?
>> Every significant language became multi-paradigm these days, but you can do it intentionally, like Scala, or you can do it badly.
> Python is multi paradigm, but does several things really well that other ecosystems do not.
Both Perl and Ruby can be, and often are, used instead of Python to great success for similar concerns. IOW, the three are often Liskov substitutable[0].
> Javascript as well.
You're kidding, right?
> What claim to fame does Scala have in this regard ...
Scala supports declarative, generative, imperative, meta, and object-oriented paradigms. All of which are supported by at least, but not limited to, the JVM and JavaScript runtimes.
These capabilities transcend libraries (such as Akka) and/or frameworks (such as Spark).
"Among the clients of the Spark runtime architecture, Scala is the most popular language, followed by Python and Java. According to a recent survey by Databricks, the company behind Apache Spark, 71% of respondents reported using Scala for Spark development, while Python was used by 24% and Java by 5%.
Another survey by Typesafe on the Spark ecosystem revealed that 88% of respondents used Scala, 44% used Java, and 22% used Python, with the percentages reflecting multiple language usage.
Scala is considered the most optimized language for Spark due to its integration with the JVM and its role as the language in which Spark was internally implemented, offering better performance and access to the latest features."
It's interesting that Odersky started with Modula-2 (implementing a Z80 compiler), did a PhD with Wirth, but there discovered that functional programming offered a level of theoretical rigor and mathematical elegance he missed in Wirth's imperative languages. Wirth was generally critical of the complexity and abstraction often associated with functional languages. Rather than rejecting Wirth's pragmatism, he carried it forward by attempting to make functional programming "industry-ready".
Have error messages improved? I remember trying it few years back but the error messages made it hard to debug. Is it due to use of JVM? Sorry for my lack of knowledge since I rarely program in JVM based languages.
It was before this: It was never a huge community, but from very early on it was split thanks to some rather unfriendly, competitive personalities and very different goals. You didn't just use scala: you either ran scala with a Twitter stack, or a typesafe(now lightbend) stack, or a scalaz stack, or a cats stack, or a zip stack. And a lot of the people developing each stack didn't like each other. I've gotten to work with core contributors of multiple of those, and knowing that I wasn't a devotee of any stack led to hearing way to much complaining in pairing sessions about how The Others (TM) were slowing down the adoption of the language.
A language that is really popular can manage having 5 ways to do things, but a small community is just going to lose steam. And the fact is, all the ways work just fine in a vacuum, but you can't just get really mature tooling when everything is just so split.
I don't think it is a problem with Scala 3 itself. Scala 3 brought a lot of improvements, one of them is using semantic versioning. People used to complain a log about binary compatibility between versions in 2.x. Now it's here.
I think that the slow adoption of Scala 3 is mainly due to one of its most successful projects: Apache Spark. To this day, Spark only supports Scala 2.13 although Scala 3 has been around for years now. This is both disappointing and frustrating because a lot of people were introduced to Scala thanks to Apache Spark.
What really obliterated Scala’s momentum was PySpark overtaking Scala Spark coming from Python’s foothold in Data Science, columnar data warehouses carving out a big chunk of the batch processing pie as well, and then the Akka licensing change.
The Enterprise ecosystem quickly withered away, and now only type level programming diehards remain.
Why is that? I think they did a lot of things right. Offer automatic conversions, backwards and forwards compatibility from a sufficiently recent 12.x version.
I think mostly Kotlin being simpler and Java gaining features ate the lunch. Also, software like Akka and Spark becoming less prevalent hurt because they were big reasons for devs to learn the language. Not to mention the community drama.
The only bad thing was that it took quite long for Scala3 to become available leading to a lot of stagnation.
I remember being a big fan of Scala, and before Scala 3 it was looking to me that Kotlin was becoming a big competitor. Could that be, or do I have my timeline wrong?
I was first a big fan of Scala, and while I still like it, I am now really into Kotlin.
I don't find it disappointing: I tend to consider that Scala was an inspiration for Kotlin. Maybe Kotlin won by being simpler, and definitely because of the tooling and community: being backed by JetBrains and Google helps.
For a long time, the tooling was very limited with Scala, which must have slowed its adoption, right?
Can you elaborate on what you're referring to? I can see performance becoming a problem if you repeatedly chain non-optimisable (in bytecode) as excluding the in place operations I believe all ops re-allocate the collection.
Scala was the second programming language I learned (the first was Java). I think I'm quite lucky to have picked up a language like Scala so early in my programming journey. It made it very easy for me to learn new programming languages, since it made it easy to support wildly different paradigms (which is also what makes it hard to use in an enterprise environment).
yeah, you get everything and the kitchen sink with Scala. Which is actually IMO its biggest weakness. It wants to be everything, and it isn't amazing at anything as a result.
That is why I actually like Scala. I want every tool to be available at my disposal, and I can choose what to use or not use. I want it to be reasonably succinct and type safe.
I don't want the language to dictate how I use it. I'd prefer the language not to look out for me. There might be some, but a lot of languages look out way too much. Golang for example doesn't allow you to compile if there is an unused var. Java with private as the default.
It is great that there is a production-ready language that differs from other languages.
Every significant language became multi-paradigm these days, but you can do it intentionally, like Scala, or you can do it badly.
Python is multi paradigm, but does several things really well that other ecosystems do not. Javascript as well. Java as well. What claim to fame does Scala have in this regard, aside from being the best supported language for Spark for several years before PySpark overtook it? Perhaps Akka before the boneheaded decision to paywall that ecosystem?
>> Every significant language became multi-paradigm these days, but you can do it intentionally, like Scala, or you can do it badly.
> Python is multi paradigm, but does several things really well that other ecosystems do not.
Both Perl and Ruby can be, and often are, used instead of Python to great success for similar concerns. IOW, the three are often Liskov substitutable[0].
> Javascript as well.
You're kidding, right?
> What claim to fame does Scala have in this regard ...
Scala supports declarative, generative, imperative, meta, and object-oriented paradigms. All of which are supported by at least, but not limited to, the JVM and JavaScript runtimes.
These capabilities transcend libraries (such as Akka) and/or frameworks (such as Spark).
0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liskov_substitution_principle
"Among the clients of the Spark runtime architecture, Scala is the most popular language, followed by Python and Java. According to a recent survey by Databricks, the company behind Apache Spark, 71% of respondents reported using Scala for Spark development, while Python was used by 24% and Java by 5%. Another survey by Typesafe on the Spark ecosystem revealed that 88% of respondents used Scala, 44% used Java, and 22% used Python, with the percentages reflecting multiple language usage. Scala is considered the most optimized language for Spark due to its integration with the JVM and its role as the language in which Spark was internally implemented, offering better performance and access to the latest features."
When is this from? I would be shocked if in 2025 most Spark was being written in Scala
August 2024 -- so, dated.. mea culpa https://moldstud.com/articles/p-what-programming-languages-a...
It's interesting that Odersky started with Modula-2 (implementing a Z80 compiler), did a PhD with Wirth, but there discovered that functional programming offered a level of theoretical rigor and mathematical elegance he missed in Wirth's imperative languages. Wirth was generally critical of the complexity and abstraction often associated with functional languages. Rather than rejecting Wirth's pragmatism, he carried it forward by attempting to make functional programming "industry-ready".
I love scala case classes and pattern matching. Too bad the compiler sucked (too slow) and it had some rather large footguns like implicits
Have error messages improved? I remember trying it few years back but the error messages made it hard to debug. Is it due to use of JVM? Sorry for my lack of knowledge since I rarely program in JVM based languages.
Do you mean compiler errors or some other kind of error message?
Compiler errors got a lot better during the Scala 2.12 era.
Yes. It might have been errors when using Apache Spark with Apache Zeppelin notebooks. However, I must admit it was long time ago (2015-2016 era).
Disk partitioning labels: GPT, MBR, SUN, or BSD.
Answer: some PL prof used to do a lot of java back in his day
Scala is a great language. It's a little bit disappointing that Kotlin is the JVM language that's gained so much traction instead.
They really obliterated their momentum with how they went about Scala 3, unfortunately.
It was before this: It was never a huge community, but from very early on it was split thanks to some rather unfriendly, competitive personalities and very different goals. You didn't just use scala: you either ran scala with a Twitter stack, or a typesafe(now lightbend) stack, or a scalaz stack, or a cats stack, or a zip stack. And a lot of the people developing each stack didn't like each other. I've gotten to work with core contributors of multiple of those, and knowing that I wasn't a devotee of any stack led to hearing way to much complaining in pairing sessions about how The Others (TM) were slowing down the adoption of the language.
A language that is really popular can manage having 5 ways to do things, but a small community is just going to lose steam. And the fact is, all the ways work just fine in a vacuum, but you can't just get really mature tooling when everything is just so split.
I don't think it is a problem with Scala 3 itself. Scala 3 brought a lot of improvements, one of them is using semantic versioning. People used to complain a log about binary compatibility between versions in 2.x. Now it's here. I think that the slow adoption of Scala 3 is mainly due to one of its most successful projects: Apache Spark. To this day, Spark only supports Scala 2.13 although Scala 3 has been around for years now. This is both disappointing and frustrating because a lot of people were introduced to Scala thanks to Apache Spark.
I learned scala due to load testing with Gatling.
I’ve always hated Java but Scala was super fun.
What really obliterated Scala’s momentum was PySpark overtaking Scala Spark coming from Python’s foothold in Data Science, columnar data warehouses carving out a big chunk of the batch processing pie as well, and then the Akka licensing change.
The Enterprise ecosystem quickly withered away, and now only type level programming diehards remain.
Why is that? I think they did a lot of things right. Offer automatic conversions, backwards and forwards compatibility from a sufficiently recent 12.x version.
I think mostly Kotlin being simpler and Java gaining features ate the lunch. Also, software like Akka and Spark becoming less prevalent hurt because they were big reasons for devs to learn the language. Not to mention the community drama.
The only bad thing was that it took quite long for Scala3 to become available leading to a lot of stagnation.
I remember being a big fan of Scala, and before Scala 3 it was looking to me that Kotlin was becoming a big competitor. Could that be, or do I have my timeline wrong?
I've used both fairly extensively. Scala is just "too much". Kotlin is perhaps not enough, but that's better than too much.
I was first a big fan of Scala, and while I still like it, I am now really into Kotlin.
I don't find it disappointing: I tend to consider that Scala was an inspiration for Kotlin. Maybe Kotlin won by being simpler, and definitely because of the tooling and community: being backed by JetBrains and Google helps.
For a long time, the tooling was very limited with Scala, which must have slowed its adoption, right?
Except when you chain many collection operations... then it breaks horribly.
Can you elaborate on what you're referring to? I can see performance becoming a problem if you repeatedly chain non-optimisable (in bytecode) as excluding the in place operations I believe all ops re-allocate the collection.
Just use `.iterator` before chaining and the final collection will only be allocated once.
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