> The app represents an unprecedented linking of government databases into a single tool, including from the State Department, Customs and Border Protection (CBP), the FBI, and state records
I think we're well past the point of stopping these dystopian practices given the government has already collected this data. They're merely using it how they want. If you go through customs as a US citizen, you don't even need to hand over your passport: they just scan your face now.
Calling out these practices is good, but the time to stop this would've been after 9/11 and the ensuing terrorism hysteria (Patriot Act, FISA, etc..) which gave three letter agencies the go-ahead to do whatever they want.
Definitely. I think that would be very hard to carry out for various reasons, though. Intelligence agencies generally want minimal oversight and more power so you'd be fighting that at every corner which includes:
1) Vague threats to leak/expose Congress members' personal matters who craft legislation against them. Chuck Schumer (a sitting US senator) admitted on live TV that the intel community has "six ways from Sunday" to get back at you.
2) Blatant disregard for the law by "just following orders", see anecdotes about Michael Hayden, a former CIA director.
3) Data storage, backup, and classified systems. Decades of collection probably means this data is scattered in many places which could give these agencies a chance to retain data "accidentally" or put up roadblocks due to high level clearances being required to work with these systems.
I agree - but technology is just a tool here. The Stasi famously had a network of human informants to notice and collect information.
Going forward it would be nice if we stopped letting these mobs grab power but it's too late, so maybe the effort should be focused on using tools like this to our advantage. Surely there must be some value to the populous to track their oppressors and those that control them - have you considered building a citizen-powered system so you can watch the watchers?
The "magic" is that they have it all joined with the database that tells them who crossed the other way recently, the flight database or the cruise ship database so it's not searching through millions of passport photos every time. They have a pretty good idea of the search space.
it is made with public money, and as it can't be stopped, it should just be made available to the general public and businesses. I think that should be applied to all the government collected info (except for narrow cases specifically excluded like health and IRS records - though i think IRS records also should be public)
That thinking is how we're getting more and more power asymmetry between government and society. The government knows everything about everybody (even if today it is 90% true it will be 100% tomorrow anyway), and thus has unlimited power over everybody. The only way to defang such power is to make the info public from the beginning.
If they are going to do this, they really ought to corroborate the face recognition with fingerprints. Many people have unrelated doppelgangers, even if an AI algorithm was near perfect: https://twinstrangers.net/
This was demonstrated in the investigation into the January 6th riots.
ICE is not the only part of the government using it, or something like it.
Might be made seperately for each agency, more profitable that way.
As a former MAGA it's just mind boggling to watch all the supposedly freedom loving GOP base clamor for mass digital surveillance and gestapo immigration raids. These same tools and policies will just be used against them in the future. Makes me question democracy.
For instance, during Covid, many of us thought that vaccination-status should determine travel eligibility, etc. And we were happy that the government enforced some valid restrictions on people who refused to obey the rules; for the good of society. Many of us thought the government didn't go far enough, and hoped for even more draconian measures.
You might think such measures would have been justified because of the existential emergency. But the current administration believes open-borders represent an existential emergency, too. In both cases, it's the same underlying instinct. Would you have honestly objected if the government had used facial recognition to hold the unvaccinated accountable?
--
According to a January 2022 Heartland Institute and Rasmussen Reports national survey, where democratic voters responded:
55% supported government fines for Americans who refused a COVID-19 vaccine.
59% favored policies requiring unvaccinated individuals to remain confined to their homes at all times except for emergencies.
45% supported requiring unvaccinated citizens to temporarily live in designated facilities or locations if they refused vaccination.
48% favored allowing governments to fine or imprison individuals who publicly question the efficacy of the existing COVID-19 vaccines on social media, TV, radio, or online publications.
29% supported the idea of temporarily removing parents’ custody of their children if parents refuse to get the COVID-19 vaccine.
47% favored government tracking programs using devices to monitor the unvaccinated and ensure quarantine or social distancing.
The news of Palantir database part was pretty unpopular among the twitter right from what I've seen. If it came to a public vote I doubt "government builds giant surveillance system" would get wide support from anyone even if it was spun as anti-immigrant.
This is just something the type of people who end up in government try every year despite the fact few people want it.
When the founder of Palantir donates a ton of money -- as well as one of his acolytes to be the VP -- it would be more surprising if this DIDN'T happen. This is precisely the kind of thing the angry right wing would be up in arms about (maybe even literally) if it wasn't their side pushing for it.
The billionaire party owns both political parties; they shuffle the front-people to give the illusion of choice. In reality they get what they want. George Carlin spoke eloquently about this.
I believe strongly that most of this work has been done prior to
the current president taking office.
What you say may be true and we will see what comes in the future,
but dont for a moment believe that all these things are due to
the current, nor that previous was fighting to stop it.
Exactly. Everyone screeching now should have listened to those weirdo civil liberties people 20yr ago.
You get the government you deserve.
I hope we can get this authoritarian phase over with quickly so that the people who actually made decisions, if only as minor as voting, can suffer for them rather than die peacefully leaving future generations to sort it out.
Not in the future, these tools and policies are already used against everyone right now. Plenty of Trump supporters have already been arrested and/or deported by ICE.
https://archive.md/YVKNN
> The app represents an unprecedented linking of government databases into a single tool, including from the State Department, Customs and Border Protection (CBP), the FBI, and state records
I think we're well past the point of stopping these dystopian practices given the government has already collected this data. They're merely using it how they want. If you go through customs as a US citizen, you don't even need to hand over your passport: they just scan your face now.
Calling out these practices is good, but the time to stop this would've been after 9/11 and the ensuing terrorism hysteria (Patriot Act, FISA, etc..) which gave three letter agencies the go-ahead to do whatever they want.
In theory, a law could be proposed at any time, voted on soon after, and the Executive branch should have to follow it.
To adapt a common adage, maybe immediately post 9/11 would have been the best time. Now is the second best.
Definitely. I think that would be very hard to carry out for various reasons, though. Intelligence agencies generally want minimal oversight and more power so you'd be fighting that at every corner which includes:
1) Vague threats to leak/expose Congress members' personal matters who craft legislation against them. Chuck Schumer (a sitting US senator) admitted on live TV that the intel community has "six ways from Sunday" to get back at you.
2) Blatant disregard for the law by "just following orders", see anecdotes about Michael Hayden, a former CIA director.
3) Data storage, backup, and classified systems. Decades of collection probably means this data is scattered in many places which could give these agencies a chance to retain data "accidentally" or put up roadblocks due to high level clearances being required to work with these systems.
I agree - but technology is just a tool here. The Stasi famously had a network of human informants to notice and collect information.
Going forward it would be nice if we stopped letting these mobs grab power but it's too late, so maybe the effort should be focused on using tools like this to our advantage. Surely there must be some value to the populous to track their oppressors and those that control them - have you considered building a citizen-powered system so you can watch the watchers?
> so you can watch the watchers
Watch in what way? And would it matter seeing as they have the full force of the government behind them anyway?
> If you go through customs as a US citizen, you don't even need to hand over your passport: they just scan your face now.
It's always amazed me how well this works when they are scanning you with the same 2015-era cheap logitech camera I have.
The "magic" is that they have it all joined with the database that tells them who crossed the other way recently, the flight database or the cruise ship database so it's not searching through millions of passport photos every time. They have a pretty good idea of the search space.
It's weaponized pivot tables all the way down.
it is made with public money, and as it can't be stopped, it should just be made available to the general public and businesses. I think that should be applied to all the government collected info (except for narrow cases specifically excluded like health and IRS records - though i think IRS records also should be public)
That sounds like a perfect way to make a disastrous situation an order of magnitude more disastrous.
That thinking is how we're getting more and more power asymmetry between government and society. The government knows everything about everybody (even if today it is 90% true it will be 100% tomorrow anyway), and thus has unlimited power over everybody. The only way to defang such power is to make the info public from the beginning.
If they are going to do this, they really ought to corroborate the face recognition with fingerprints. Many people have unrelated doppelgangers, even if an AI algorithm was near perfect: https://twinstrangers.net/
This was demonstrated in the investigation into the January 6th riots. ICE is not the only part of the government using it, or something like it. Might be made seperately for each agency, more profitable that way.
Peter Thiel must be doing Mr Burns laugh on this one
No... he'll do that if/when his acolyte steps up from VPOTUS to POTUS.
We all knew USA is just a Temu version of Chinese Communist Party
[dead]
As a former MAGA it's just mind boggling to watch all the supposedly freedom loving GOP base clamor for mass digital surveillance and gestapo immigration raids. These same tools and policies will just be used against them in the future. Makes me question democracy.
Most of us are guilty of this.
For instance, during Covid, many of us thought that vaccination-status should determine travel eligibility, etc. And we were happy that the government enforced some valid restrictions on people who refused to obey the rules; for the good of society. Many of us thought the government didn't go far enough, and hoped for even more draconian measures.
You might think such measures would have been justified because of the existential emergency. But the current administration believes open-borders represent an existential emergency, too. In both cases, it's the same underlying instinct. Would you have honestly objected if the government had used facial recognition to hold the unvaccinated accountable?
--
According to a January 2022 Heartland Institute and Rasmussen Reports national survey, where democratic voters responded:
https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/par...The news of Palantir database part was pretty unpopular among the twitter right from what I've seen. If it came to a public vote I doubt "government builds giant surveillance system" would get wide support from anyone even if it was spun as anti-immigrant.
This is just something the type of people who end up in government try every year despite the fact few people want it.
I don't know anyone clamoring for mass digital surveillance. Immigration raids perhaps.
When the founder of Palantir donates a ton of money -- as well as one of his acolytes to be the VP -- it would be more surprising if this DIDN'T happen. This is precisely the kind of thing the angry right wing would be up in arms about (maybe even literally) if it wasn't their side pushing for it.
The billionaire party owns both political parties; they shuffle the front-people to give the illusion of choice. In reality they get what they want. George Carlin spoke eloquently about this.
I believe strongly that most of this work has been done prior to the current president taking office.
What you say may be true and we will see what comes in the future, but dont for a moment believe that all these things are due to the current, nor that previous was fighting to stop it.
Many of the weapons now wielded by Trump (ICE, AUMF, DHS, Guantanamo, etc) were introduced under Bush II.
Exactly. Everyone screeching now should have listened to those weirdo civil liberties people 20yr ago.
You get the government you deserve.
I hope we can get this authoritarian phase over with quickly so that the people who actually made decisions, if only as minor as voting, can suffer for them rather than die peacefully leaving future generations to sort it out.
Not in the future, these tools and policies are already used against everyone right now. Plenty of Trump supporters have already been arrested and/or deported by ICE.
Ya good point. Just because the tools haven't been used on me personally doesn't mean they aren't already being used. I assume they used for J6 riot.
And they still blame Biden/Obama/Hillary for it.
[dead]